Self-organising complex marketing systems LO26612

From: Gavin Ritz (
Date: 05/02/01

[I believe Gavin is replying to an off-list msg from Chris. I've linked it
to the last msg in the thread. ..Rick]

Hi Chris

Chris Klopper wrote:

> On an imaginary ladder of learning we should then also find LMO's at
> different
> levels. It seems to suggest that Marketing can be thought of as a complex
> self-organising system within which we will find different self-organising
> complex marketing systems.
> Gavin
> I will study your contribution intently over the next few days
> and reply if I can add anything wortwhile.
> Two preliminary obeservations:
> a) I distinguish between
> 1. Marketing as a complex self-organising system, and
> 2. complex self-organising marketing systems

Yes, I understand that but from my knowledge of what a marketing system is
it could not become complex, something else is needed for complexifying,
maybe the mental states of the demanders, maybe the economic structures.
Marketing is in my opinion only a discipline and not a whole. Wholes
exhibit certain complexity characteristics like.

Process (flows) no and yes only part (demand side flow)
Structure, no and yes only demand side
Boundaries and limits, yes
Transforming, no
Digestion, no
Reproduce, no
Pulsate, yes
Wholes, no
Interconnections and associations, yes
Recursivity, no
Self-referential, no
Cognition and logic (differences {JND} and similarities), no
Viable, no
Motile, no
Motive, yes
Emotive, yes
Algedonic, yes
Value laden, yes
Informational, yes
Self-organizing, no
Tensegrity, yes and no only the demand side
creativeness, no
emergence, no
Mind, no
Law of energy conservation, yes
Degree of Freedom, no
Openness, yes
Categorical identity, no
Diversity-variety, yes
Adaptation, no
Law of entropy production, no
spatial-temporal, no
order and disorder, no (not so sure on this one)

> do you include both in your thinking?

Yes, but I am still can't see how any marketing concept can complexify if
it is not a whole. If you use the 7E's thinking from At de Lange then it
can't complexify because it can't produce entropy because it is not a
whole. You can also reduce those characteristics above to the 7E's.

> b) If we can learn about Marketing (in a general sense) referring to the
> discipline of Marketing, and if we can learn to market a specific
> product/service better and better (both of which I have experienced) then
> what is the product of that learning?

The discipline of marketing is just that (if that makes any sense). The
only way we can learn about a product is understand the wholes of mind. If
you see above I have included , motives, algedonic, values, pain, fear,
loss. And the processes that go with these psychological factors. Plus a
yes or a no next to the characteristic.

> However, this does not mean that I disagree
> (or for that matter agree yet)
> with your thought on this matter.

Both is good. I have a very keen interest in marketing, if you go to my
website ( ) and down load
just above my name I have mapped one portion of the human mental realm as
related to human needs and fears. Every product ever produce by mankind is
covered in there (although a bit obscure). All Products ever produced meet
all the human motives (needs, fears, hopes, desires, losses, pain) plus
the means (processes and structures) to meet those motives.

> I will think about it very carefully. May
> I just add that I appreciate the response tremendously. How on earth
> will we learn to play 'tennis' if someone does not return the ball over
> the net and then with some spin on it?

Good point.

At this is for you, I have found a way (although a bit obscure) to use
your 7E's in a business context. Thank you for them, they have helped
clarify some concepts I could not connect. (or should I say

Chris, If you use the Moncat pattern as a first point of reference it
helps simplify the complexify. Ask the question does marketing fit into
the Moncat pattern?



Gavin Ritz <>

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