a long remembered post LO29455

From: ACampnona@aol.com
Date: 11/04/02

Replying to LO29439 --

For Laura.

Dear dwig,

> Somehow, I'm reminded of Andrew's wry comment a while back: "knowledge
> doesn't happen between our ears but between our noses".

"The world we seem to live in the world of classical objects, the world of
Newtonian physics Dave (David Bohm) referred to as the "explicate order."
He felt that what we take for reality is only one particular level or
perception of order. And underneath that is what he called the "implicate
order," the enfolded order, in which things are folded together and deeply
interconnected, and out of which the explicate order unfolds. The
explicate is only, you could say, the froth on top of the milk and the
implicate order is much deeper. It includes not only matter, but
consciousness; it's only in the explicate order that we tend to break them
apart, to see them as two separate things. Dave spent a great deal of time
in the last decades of his life trying to find a mathematical expression
for this vision of reality. He also felt there was a need to reintroduce
time into physics. Of course time had always been there as a parameter,
but not as an actual dynamic entity which makes things move around. That
was the work he was doing up to the very end of his life. And his other
work of that period, with dialogue groups, was not separate from that
because again, he felt that his theory had to include consciousness as
well as matter, which led in this case to the idea that there could be a
field of information. His ontological interpretation of the quantum theory
gives the notion that matter is always responding to such a field. Up to
that point we had two levels in nature matter and energy. And now Bohm in
his ontological interpretation introduced a third, which he called "active
information" information as an activity in nature. The electron moves and
does these curious things because it is responding to a field of
information, an active field. And the human body also responds to an
active field that's how the immune system works. So he introduced this
notion of active information as something which is inherent in both matter
and consciousness, a collective and non-local phenomenon to which the
individual human consciousness, or brain, is capable of responding. He
believed it was possible to develop some sort of collectivity if people
worked at it together over a period of time, so he developed his dialogue
groups based on the idea that it might somehow be possible, through this
active information, to produce a transformation in human consciousness."

All above is David Peate speaking of the late David Bohm

This business of Time/time in physics is one reason why I persevere in
understanding the work of CETA research people like peter Beamish on the
time list intellectually I'm lost with the maths...but working on a basic
premise once offered by At, to look for patterns, I find I can intuit
value laden notions from even the most abstract stuff. like ;-)

For some time now;-) I have been deep-listening to the dialogue multilogue
of time/Time. I mean 'nature' of course;-)


"Postscript #131 to the "Lanzarote" paper (04/29/99)
New suggestions for a

The quality of communications for humans, for all Earth's biosphere and
potentially for other planetary life systems, appears now to have a
qualitative spectral range from the dominant use of signals, signs and
symbols, "Signal Based Communication" (SBC), to an encoding in rhythms,
"Rhythm Based Communication" (RBC); this range being in SBC, from ~100% to
~~0%. The spectrum includes a paradigm shift from conventional time to
concepts encompassing additional variables of "Rhythm Based Time" (postscript
#112 et al.). The apparent qualitative contrast for various communication
activities is the main point of this postscript.
The progression is from signals (SBC) to rhythms (RBC).
Language: 1) Encoding: a) audio, b) visual, c) other senses, d) combinations
of a, b, and c.; 2) Mainly "Signal Based Communication" (SBC); 3) Relatively
high stress for transmitter (~9-10 on a qualitative scale of 0-10); 4) Uses
conventional time "t" including past and future; 5) Uses: syntax, adjectives,
verbs, adverbs, prepositions, nouns, pronouns et al.; 6) Stress for listening
receivers ~8-10; 7) "Language can be lies!"; 8) Found for humans only.
SBC without language: 1) Lacking "Rhythm Based Communication" (RBC); 2)
Relatively high stress for transmitter (~9-10); 3) Stress fields include: a)
territory, b) hierarchy, c) reproductive, d) food / (money) and accumulation
of goods, e) psychological; 4) Follows the postulates of Darwinian
Evolutionary Theory; 5) Universal communication.
Music with lyrics: 1) Communication as in language, including up to ~10% RBC
(~90% SBC); 2) Stress for listening receivers lowering to ~8-9; 3) Humans
Poetry: 1) Communication as in language, with up to ~20% RBC (~80% SBC); 2)
Stress for listening receivers lowering to ~7-8; 3) Humans only.
Music with "poetic" lyrics: 1) Communication as in language, with up to ~30%
RBC (~70% SBC); 2) Stress for listening receivers lowering to ~6-7; 3)
Probably humans only.
Rhythmic music and dancing: 1) Up to ~40% RBC; 2) Stress for listening
receivers/dancers lowering to ~5-6; 3) Possibly many organisms.
Rhythmic drumming: 1) Up to ~50% RBC; 2) Stress for listening receivers ~4-5;
3) Probably many organisms.
Meditation: 1) Up to ~60% RBC; 2) Stress reducing to ~3-4; 3) Possibly many
Sleep: 1) Up to ~70% RBC; 2) Stress reducing to ~2-3; 3) Probably many
Sincere "mature" love (without libido): 1) Up to ~80% RBC; 2) Increasing
altruism; 3) Increasing instantaneous communication of emotions; 4) Complete
messages becoming independent of spacial separation; 5) Decreasing
dishonesty; 6) Increase in "Synchronizations"; 7) Humans et al.(?).
Pure RBC: 1) Truthfulness (possibly 100%); 2) Stress very low; 3) Altruism
becomes predominant; 4) Uses "Rhythm Based Time" (RBT) which remains always
in the "present" (all RBT is "NowTime"); 5) Uses: declarative, interrogative,
affirmative, negative, nouns, concepts but no syntax; 6) "Irreducible
complexity" systems (*) can develop (for example as described by the
biochemistry of: photosynthesis, cilium, bacterial flagellum, clotting of
blood, cellular defense mechanisms et al., all examples of non evolutionary
"complex systems"); 7) Darwinian and neo-Darwinian evolutionary theories are
phased out; 8) Communication of emotions heightens to account for unexplained
phenomena of the science of paranormal psychology; 9) Communication can
become superluminal in RBT; 10) Metabolic rate reduces and thus life
expectancy increases; 11) Survival mechanisms remain strong as organisms can
revert rapidly (because of the nature of RBC) to above, stressful,
evolutionary, survival states, when required. Thesis: Original communication,
all organisms, all life.

From: Peter Beamish
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:30 am

Toshihiko Ono [Existence] wrote:

> Dear Peter (Dr. Beamish):
> My notion of instants and duration would be almost corresponding to yours
> of
> Now (T)ime (or KT) and conventional - (ct). There is no apparent
> mathematical
> paradox in special relativity - I've happened to re-recognize that we must
> re-examine the concept of space to understand the synchronization among
> different points - thank you very much for your welcoming to AGV (Assembly
> of Global Village). It seems very interesting!

(PB) Good News Toshihiko! (The following, formatted for 2 page sides) The
time has come for the presentation, by Ceta-Research (C/R), of: - "Two
Architectures of Space," Based On Two Types of "TIME" - - - namely: a)
"conventional time ct," and b) "Kitada Time KT" - -. We define KT (or RBT)
as: "The Perception of Relative Lateness." -

Let us begin with many student's early concepts of physical science and
the world that we perceive. We must firstly agree that a vector
"Displacement" (in any "spacial dimension") is equivalent to mass and/or
energy ("m/e") "Velocity" multiplied by a "Duration" (defined by a
"timetag" and/or a "Timetag" difference - "Rhythm Based Communication"
(RBC) concept #119, ref. "TIME" beyond "conventional time"). Recall,
s.v.p., that these "tags" are simply scalar labels of a) and b) above.

I) "Physical Space" is real, is easy and is evident everywhere in the
world that we perceive. It is defined precisely, as per above semantics,
and including relativity theory, by: Velocity multiplied by "time
Duration." [Recall from an early age: distance =(rate)(time);
100km=100km/hour for one hour.] Physical Space is a "physical reality."

What then could be: II) "RBC Space?"
It is: Velocity multiplied by "Time Duration." And how then does it differ?
OK - fair question - and here is our "paradigm shift answer."
RBC Space is "A Communication Space" which is indeed real but, this is a
"biophysical reality," somewhat removed from the physical accomplishments of
past centuries. Firstly, its "foundation of communication" has three
components, all critically necessary, and as follows: 1) Entity A transmits,
2) Entity B (or A for echolocation et al.) receives, and 3) The "receiving
entity" alters its subsequent behaviour (physical or mental) as a result of
said reception. Secondly, if these entities become synchronized in circular,
rhythmic, Kitada Time, then said receiving entity knows of the Physical Space

under the necessary and sufficient condition of comprehension of the received
"Lateness," a primary variable in RBC. Thirdly, said Lateness is predictably
recurrent from a negotiated common rhythm. And fourthly, said receiving
entity can biochemically force Lateness into "OnTimeness" (the Kitada Time of
Synchronization) and substantially reduce Physical Space, converting it into
real, and useful, RBC Space.
There is one caveat to comprehension. In such RBC, the information must be
encoded in Time and not in signals, signs and symbols. For example, human
language cannot be effective: a) in "Information-RBC," nor b) in the creation
of real RBC Space, unless it matters little WHAT one says but greatly WHEN
one says it. This WHEN, however, must be relative, cyclical, Kitada Time T
and not conventional, linear time t.

Example: (from a previously published, C/R, suggested scenario):

1. A mother cetacean "Meg" (from Megaptera for "giant wings") shares
biological rhythms, both before and after the birth of "Nova."
2. Meg instructs Nova to produce a short "click" (in cyclical KT) at the
"OnTime Window" of a common synchronized rhythm.
3. Meg directs a Physical Space separation of x km.
4. Meg receives Nova's "OnTime" clicks, but now they are "Late" to her (in
Time KT), by x/v units of conventional time t, where v is of an approximate
constant value (the velocity of sound in sea water).
5. Meg enters both her "OnTimeness" and Nova's "Lateness" into a new "set" of
biological clocks, whereby the magnitude of said Lateness represents the
Physical Space of the separation.
Until this time there is no paradigm shift and the physics of the
communication is well understood. Next, however, comes Meg's conversion from
Physical Space to RBC Space, a phenomenon seemingly verified by some human
communications evidence, especially between identical twins.
6. Meg "forces" (biochemically), the above Lateness (in cyclical "Time KT",
not in linear "time ct"), of x/v on one clock, into her OnTimeness, on
another clock.
7. Provided that Nova's information is encoded in Time (the very definition
of RBC), and not in signal (non temporal variables of the click, somewhat
similar to much of human language), then the RBC Space can reduce to what was
the Physical Space after synchronization but before separation. Mother and
calf can communicate (provided that the click is received), as if they were
side by side, and the reduction in x is only dependent on the biophysical
speed of the receiver's clock rotation. Such communication works identically
in both directions, and additionally between organism groups.

1. RBC could account for Carl Jung's "collective unconscious."
2. The two clocks of item 6 could be m/e travelling along two protein
strands (uprights) of a DNA/RNA "twisted ladder."
3. These RBC clocks could be in: a) conscious mind ("involved with the
architecture of a central nervous system"), or b) in any other living cell,
involving itself with the RBC (perhaps definable as "unconscious mind," ref.
"TIME" book), or both.
4 The Kitada Time "forcing" of Lateness into OnTimeness could be generated by
m/e path differences, possibly utilizing "ladder rungs" (nucleotides) to
change path lengths and thus alter clock readout.

Reference web sites:
a) <http://www.animalcontact.com/research>
(for "DUAL TIME," communications concepts)
b) <http://www.egroups.com/message/time/4380>
c) <http://www.egroups.com/message/time/4899>
d) <http://kims.ms.u-tokyo.ac.jp/>
(for QM mathematics, home page of Dr. H. Kitada)
C/R Reference books: "TIME" beyond "conventional time" (Over 200 Ancient and
Novel Concepts Merge), ISBN 0-9689955-0-0, Edited and partially written by
the author of Dancing With Whales, ISBN 1-895387-28-0.
end citation from peter beamish
    Some of you might think of a child angel with long wings, reaching out
before;-) a sea creatured mural -- as if she would plunge in knot knowing

No event can be beyond expectations,
fear contradiction, or compel surprise, for Zeus,
father of Olympians, has made night at full noon,
darkness mid the brilliance of the sun-
and pale fear has seized men.
Henceforth nothing for them is certain:
one may expect everything,
and none among you should be astonished to see,
one day, the deer, preferring the sonorous tides
of the sea to the land,
borrow from the dolphins sea pasture,
while the latter plunge into the mountains.

Archilochus, 700 BC

dwig, next year I am fifty years old. This evening i WAS ;-) looking all
around ;-) for you and I found this. This, then;-) is for you right now;-).

"Our delight in the sunshine on the deep bladed grass today might be no more
than the faint perception of wearied souls, if it were not for the sunshine
and grass of far off years, which still live in us and transform our
perception into love."

Whatd'ya think of that then?



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