Systemic basis for a 'natural morality'? LO29844

From: AM de Lange (
Date: 01/24/03

Replying to LO29814 --

Dear Organlearners,

Steve Randall < > writes:

>An inquiry: Is there any systemic basis for a 'natural morality'?
>What one might call a universal system of values? Some direct,
>***experiential guidelines*** that can be applied to any action
>or mental operation, including particular learnings?
>Is there a kind of 'natural', rather than 'imposed' morality that
>arises spontaneously and appropriately in any situation? My
>inquiry into this shows so far that there is. But how can this be
>characterized or described?

Greetings dear Steve

Thank you very much for a most interesting response to the remark "In
short, I can see fairly clearly how to judge the effectiveness of learning
but how are we to judge its goodness?" by Fred Nickols.

Discerning between good and bad and perhaps the shades in between is
something which kept human minds buzzy for some 4000 years now, probably
beginning with Job. Can we say that a study of their findings is an
"'imposed' morality"? I would say so if i am compelled to accept their
findings without having examined them critically and making up my own
mind. So what "entity" do i use to examine them critically and making up
my own mind? Does this "entity" serve as the source for a "'natural'
morality"? Should this "entity" be the mind, then i will be doing the same
as so many human minds before me the past 4 millennia. Should others be
compelled to accept my "'natural' morality" without questioning it, does
it not then become an "'imposed' morality"?

I think this problem of an "'imposed' morality" can be solved by
distinguishing between "information which exists outside me" (what
others had to say on morality) and "knowledge which dwells with me"
(what i self may say on morality). But this brings us to another problem
which Fred described as
"Absent a universal system of values, I see nothing but endless
debate regarding the "goodness" of any particular learning ..."
So this seems to lead us in finding an impartial system for morality.
Is this what you meant by a "'natural' morality"?

I find your "morality that arises spontaneously and appropriately in any
situation" very intriguing. It is so that everything (and i mean it, there
is no exception) in nature happens spontaneously. But in human culture
many things also happen non-spontaneously, things which would not have
happened by themselves. For example, this message would not have appeared
by the computer's own accord.

For anything in any system to happen spontaneously, even the emergence of
morality in the human mind, it has to have sufficient "free energy" (two
words, but one concept) for it. With too little free energy it will not
arise. Does it mean in the case of morality i will remain immoral? No, not
at all. I will simply remain oblivious to morality. Some time i will do
good, some time i will do bad and many time i will do a shade between good
and bad.

What is clear to me is that "free energy" has to play a vital role in any
system of morality, even a "'natural' morality". For example, if i
parasitise on the "free energy" of a person needed for his/her morality to
arise, i am sure that i am acting bad.

Having enough "free energy" for an emergence, even morality, is the
necessary requirement. How, due to some pretty thinking of the Arabs many
centuries ago, we also need to think of the sufficiency requirement. It is
here where the 7Es (seven essentialities of creativity) come into play.
They are liveness, sureness, wholeness, fruitfulness, spareness, otherness
and openness. Should one of them be seriously impaired, a destructive
immergence rather than a constructive emergence will happen. In the case
of morlaity the person will become more immoral rather than more moral.

Does this make the 7Es the seven, say, basic laws of morality? No, they
are essential to creativity and everything else which arises from it. But
would any learning of the 7Es not lead to an "'imposed' creativity" rather
than a "natural' creativity" (using your disctinction for creativity too)?
Not if we are allowed to question them and making up our own minds. I
discovered them all together by seeking corresponding patterns between a
material system and an abstract system involving the greatest amount of
creativity to uncover them. I selected the chemical system for the
material world and the mathematical system for the abstract world.

I may be so arrogant as to say that since the 7Es are essential to the
chemical system, they may be used for setting up a system of "'natural'
morality". However, humans have learned how to force the chemical system
far outside its natural bounds to produce compounds which do not exists in
nature ("xenonatural" compounds). The interesting thing is that the 7Es
are still essential to produce them. The difference between a natural and
a xenonatural compound is that the latter has to be "imposed" (using your
distinction once again) by doing work on the system since it has not
enough "free energy" to produce these compounds self.

So once again i arive at the conclusion that "free energy" has to
play a key role in what ever system of morality we may consider.
In this sense i am about as distinct form philosophers of morality
in the past as Copernicus was from astronomers in his past. I once
wrote a series of essays on this for the edification of fellow learners.
You might have a look at them. The URLs are:
Work and Free Energy -- The Dance of LEP on LEC LO25369 -Part I
< >
Work and Free Energy -- The Dance of LEP on LEC LO25370 -Part II
< >
Work and Free Energy -- The Dance of LEP on LEC LO25371 -Part III
< >

I did not have specifically morality in mind when writing them, but they
certainly give much food for thought on morality.

This reply has become too long for its density. However, just one comment
more please!

>How can this be applied moment-by-moment during
>'ordinary experience'? Following are some notes on a
>trip I took to Montreal, attempting to explore this possibility:

This reminds me that experience rather than information is the primary way
to knowledge, in this case a knowledge of "'natural' morality". Thank you
Steve, i have enjoyed your experiences and mental explorations of them.

With care and best wishes


At de Lange <> Snailmail: A M de Lange Gold Fields Computer Centre Faculty of Science - University of Pretoria Pretoria 0001 - Rep of South Africa

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