Replying to LO30205 --
When I have ever disagreed with what you have written, it has been because
I have not expressed myself clearly enough in the first place.
>Thank you Andrew for setting my thinking in action. How about responding,
>especially when you disagree with what i have written?
A few days ago, as a result of a myriad of events all experienced as deep
within me ;-) I decided to quit my involvement, at every level with LO,
both the public and the private dialogues. I was going to do it sudden. It
seemed intuitively a better way. Now I am not so sure, but I am very sure
that my days are severely numbered.
I see an immense evil raising itself up over the world, within the world.
I have seen this evil for as long as I have written and read here. I have
seen it implicate and explicate and I experienced it first hand on another
list-server. It was close to a form of fascism, but in a velvet glove.
My nature is a very kind one. It has to be.
There is, right now, something very unreal that lives here, virtually, in
other places virtually and out there in the non-virtual realm. In a
nutshell, the demons let loose by a world that is 'sickly' in all it's
I applaud you dear At, I applaud your dear lady wife Alicia and your
children who have visited us here. I applaud and thank people like Rick
and Leo and Terry for troubling to step off the 'plain'-)s of entropy
landscapes to sit close with a very perturbed personality. I applaud
others who wanted to come but could not, because of murderous events, like
the visit cancelled just days before 9/11, an event that if one read the
archives one might think was some minor event in Arkensaw. Events in
Palestine, SARS, 'Mad Cow' Disease, soon new financial calamities of
catastrophic proportions - new wars -....
This might amuse you At, it's David Bohm quoting Leonardo lightheartedly
saying he's paraphrasing a bit ;-)
"Moreover, many artists seem to understand the primary role of movement quite
naturally and spontaneously, thus Leonardo said,
1/ Movement gives shape to all things.
2/ Structure gives order to movement
Evidently, -- the movement of the fluid is what gives shape to the form of
a vortex. What gives order to this movement is a totality of structure,
beginning with that of the surroundings in which the fluid moves, and
going on to the intrinsic structure which determines the overall order of
the movement; that is, how different movements in different places and
times are related. We may now add a more modern insight which Leonardo
probably understood implicitly:
3/ A deep and more extensive inner movement creates, maintains and
ultimately dissolves structure. -- There is nothing known that does not
dissolve into movement in this way. There are no 'things' Rather 'things'
are abstracted out of the movement in our perception and thought, and any
such abstraction fits the real movement only up to a point, and within
limits. Some things may last for a very long time and be fairly stable,
while others are as ephemeral as the shapes abstracted in perceptions of
Bohm used to get what a painter once called 'slipping glimpses' (of
another 'way', whole, 'train', 'flow', ...) and it is, was, will be all
about considering the primary nature of the significance of movement in a
general sense ;-) "which includes art, inward experience at the
psychological level, and what is to be meant by life indicating a germ ;-)
of a different world view which can function to call attention to our
outward perceptions and inward feelings in a new way, so that we can be
free of the habitual and automatic function of the traditional view that
this movement is meaningless, without some thing that is ' doing the
Bohm proceeds straightaway to point out the way that art and science were
once whole and undifferentiated. He similarizes childhood. They do not, he
says, of their own accord separate out these things, (thoughts are things
He says, "Thus what is natural and spontaneous to man is the wholeness of
art and science, and the present approach that is so common is a form of
fragmentation that has been brought about by conditioning."
It would be much better now if people ordered his book 'On Creativity' and
read the chapter, The Art of Perceiving Movement. It is very amusing ;-)
My dear Leo, I keep your amazing Rembrandt surpassing portrait by me all
the time. The man who for years was frozen, rather like a sheet of pond
water in cold Holland winter days for an instant unfroze himself, slipped
the glimpse wjhile ;-) I was gone and did what Blake said can be done, put
eternity into an hour, except you have put eternity into a few seconds and
so surpassed Will'm Blake, too. I wonder if you truly appreciate the
nature of that genius and how you let it slip sideways? Leo, I would not
let such a slipping glimpse pass into the great nothingness. It is a
resurrection. It is whole.
(Wholed+Healed=Holy) Andrew's mathematics.
Peter Senge, I once read a reference you made to Picasso, and image
creation. Maybe this is what you were thinking of. It wasn't clear to me
in the notes where you'd derived the idea from. "It would be very
interesting to preserve photographically, not the stages, but the
metamorphoses of a picture. Possibly one might then discover the path
followed by the brain in materialising a dream. But there is one very odd
thing - to notice that basically a picture doesn't change, that the first
vision remains almost intact, in spite of appearances." Moments later it's
reported he said: " A picture is not thought out and settled beforehand.
While it is being done it changes as one's thoughts change." Do you see
Leo? do you see At? do you see LO?
Seven years and not a step further forward, or so it seems for me. It's
probably just me, with skewed and defective vision, not enough information
or PhD' ing
Last week Melanie said, in all innocence - '"Andrew, Nathan warned me, you
can see what people are thinking, before they have even thought it;-)"
But, really, ladies and gentleman, isn't it true, that we prefer to stay
with the blindspots, wandering in the shadowlands we have so long and
I just don't have the energy, and you/we are running out of energy, time,
fuel, call it whatever you want...Yes SK 'art is a leveller'. It makes
things whole, after it has shattered some;-)
A new frame for new and rich pictures where each one enfolds the whole, we
then have something new - a new kind of intelligence ...'kind', 'kinder',
[Host's Note: White space inserted by your host. ..Rick]
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