Our Founding Discipline LO20401

John Zavacki (jzavacki@greenapple.com)
Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:50:12 -0500

Replying to LO20396 --

Responding to John Gunkler's commentary on V-the 5th Discipline-systems
thinking/systems dynamics, AT said:

>Many of the contributions to our ongoing dialogue are concerned with
>systems thinking (system dynamics), although few say so explicitly. It is
>those contributions to the dialogue which help us to understand system
>dynamics better and even improve on system dynamics. It is up to us to
>identify them and order them coherently and consistently into our systems
>thinking. We cannot do any better without these dialogues. Furthermore,
>dialogue helps us to prevent the SUBJECT system dynamics turning into an
>OBJECT and eventually making a doctrine of it.

The entire dichotomy of subject/object which you use so skilfully, even
artistically, is, in its own right, a non-system almost nonsensicality
when viewed in the light of the gestalt of this list. Since we began
using order of approximation metaphor to describe human organizational
systems,we have made much spiritual progress, but not one whit of progress
on the understanding of organizational dynamics.

As most of you well know, in order for theory to be of value to the
learner (and remember, theory is, indeed, a valuable teaching tool), it
must be explanatorily as well as descriptively adequate. Systems dynamics
(links and loops and stocks and flows) describe wonderfully. Many of us
have taken to the poetry of systems (a favorite sidetrack of mine) to
avoid the rigor of description. This is a forum on organizational learning
and learning organizations. Personal Mastery is one of the disciplines.
It is not the only one.

John F. Zavacki
Polish Linguist and Poet


"John Zavacki" <jzavacki@greenapple.com>

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