Steve Eskow considers the leap from the material world to the abstract
world of mind as a too big one, causing obfuscation.
Steve, let me try to provoke you.
I think we can learn (what else are we trying here?) when we compare the
obfuscation between the two realms of material and abstract world with a
comparable (?) historical "confusion of realms": The sphere of heaven
(including the eternal motion of sun, moon, planets and fix stars) and the
sphere of earth (with everything coming to rest and death). The world of
harmony and the world of struggle. It cannot be that the known earth
reflect the laws of heaven and both ought not to be confused. The laws of
heaven are reflected in the moral center of the soul of humans - while the
body reflect the laws of earth.
When you forget the dynamcal laws of Newton and think of what was thought
to be the laws of the heavenly and earthly spheres - eternal truths with
the authority of Aristoteles and the christian church and with the
evidence of all possible observation behind - it is still like a wonder
how Kepler, Galileo and finally Newton could induce such a paradigm
change, that today the exact opposite is as evident today.
Let's have a look at some of Steves comments and translate them:
>I ask At and all here to consider that the profound "obfuscation" occurs
>in this "jump," this leap from the material world to the world of thought.
The church asked Galileo and all participating in the discussion to
consider that the profound "obfuscation" occurs in this "jump," this leap
from mans profane earth to gods holy heaven.
>Thoughts, for example, are not really subject to the "laws" that help us
>make sense of our material surround.
Heaven, for example, is not really subject to the "laws" with which some
man try to make sense of our material surround.
>two realms that ought not be confused.
and
>This is a confusion of realms.
Unchanged.
It doesn't surprise me at all, that after the unprecedented struggle of
mind for the most fundamental laws of the material world - the law of
energy conservation and the law of entropy production - that someday
someone comes up claiming that s/he has empirical evidence that these
fundamental laws also apply to the abstract world of mind. But this
empirical evidence required a shift in understanding, meaning and language
of those laws. The question for me is not anymore whether there are two
distinct spheres, a material and an abstract one, but how to understand
the laws governing both of them, unifying the sheres into one universe in
which we all coevolve.
Steve, I know you can appreciate a good provocation and I hope, you can
read my contribution as such. I am looking forward to your proof, that my
historical example is not comparable to what we are discussing here.
Meanwhile I believe that it is comparable and that At de Lange has a point
that does not create obfuscation (although a lot of entropy production),
but that has the power to overcome some of the deepest, milenia old
obfuscations of humankind.
Liebe Gruesse,
Winfried
--"Winfried Dressler" <winfried.dressler@voith.de>
Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <rkarash@karash.com> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <http://www.learning-org.com>