Evident Points, Hidden Points LO25109

From: ACampnona@aol.com
Date: 07/26/00

Dear Winfried,

Efforts have been wrestling with concerns, thoughts and visions
surrounding heroine addiction, violence and children all three touching my
life recently. All three conditions preclude for those most seriously
involved the 'dance of change' that comes both from and freely with
increased peripheral vision. Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:36:11 +0200

In your own contribution: Interview of a Deep Kind LO25093 Replying to At
de Lange's LO25085 --

At de Lange wrote:

>>The time has come for organisations and communities, small (like families
>>and shops) as well as large (like nations and corporations), to shift
>>their paradigm from simplicity to complexity while they are still not too
>>dry and the winds not yet blowing.
>>However, those who keep on clinging to the paradigm
>>of simplicity may soon burn out of control once a spark has been made. It
>>takes but one ignoramus or one anarchist to make that spark.

You wrote:
>anybody can effectively start to make sufficient fire-breaks, s/he need to
>understand that s/he is in need of such.

>Real life business world is the open sea (in contrast to a safe harbour),
>it is where we have to perform (with hopefully sufficient - quantity and
>quality - practice, fire-breaks sorry, wave breaks). I don't know how you
>experience business world, but relations becoming drier, winds are blowing
>stronger - seems quite fitting for me. And people seem to love fire.

To repeat a notion I've already used yesterday: It requires ruthlessly
compassionate partners to prepare fire-breaks. I didn't explicitly
answered Rick's questions recently on what we expect from LO-list. But
this is it for me: A safe place to think at with wonderfully diverse
ruthlessly compassionate partners.

In replying to my --Job and Kwaaiman who both still speak LO25086 --

>Dear Andrew,

>One of the most impressing pieces contributed to this list by At de Lange
>painted a rich picture of the lack of technological development of the San
>people (SY) in changing environments (SU) and the role that creativity
>plays in it for both, those in the SY and those in the SU.

>Whether you have seen it or not, it seems appropriate to make the link:
  [ http://www.learning-org.com/98.07/thread.html#11 ]

My dearest Winfried,

In a private mail shared between three people on this list serve At de
Lange noted something about an image he has seen that I am the subject of.
He fears that I should look up. But I can offer you some 'slipping

Here is something which fascinates me about the Bushwoman in her own
entirety which brings (profound-systemic) deep relief to shallow
(unprofound-unsystemic) observations recently made here on the 'list'
about 'corporeal ownership' and 'word counts' and some wished-for easier
'pick and take' LO fodder. When anyone caring to read, cares to reflect
and cares to enact something deeper, more imaginative, deeply authentic,
aligned, strategic, visionary and all round generous they might reflect on
a discovery made through the very ancient soils of South Africa by another
writing here. But that is for them to decide Winfried.

The systemic 'fit' with nature is so complete and complex among those
Bushpeoples that when a mother dies in childbirth that child is buried
alive with her, and if a set of twins is born then the second born child
is buried alive.

The last Bushman cave artist was shot in 1856 and there are now none
practicing to my knowledge. That is about as irreversible as things get I

Winfried, just between us, you know, 'behind the scenes' so to say, I am
working on a complex theory and practice of a systemic enterprise, it
involves an appreciation of 'primitive culture and practice' toward
assisting 'contemporary organisational systemic change'. It may be
agonizing for some;-) but it will be milk and honey for others;-))) I
wonder Winfried, can you guess for whom it will be agony and for whom it
will be milk and honey?

You may know that in the Babylonian 'Talmus' it tells of an incident in
which Hillel was confronted by a "heathen" who demanded to be taught the
entire Torah while standing upon (((one))) ((( foot ;-))) Hillel replied,
"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the
entire Torah: the rest is commentary -- go and learn it."

The message for the lazy among us is this:-) Authentic creativity being
unique must be complex even as interpretation, so a vast increasing set is
obtained on the one truth.

That finely sets out for me in once sentence the purpose I find being here
in relation to for one example Mnr. At de Lange.

I happen to know that At de Lange does not like being 'attended to' as a
'mystical personality'. In my deep-set ignorance I once referred to him as
such, just once and with a glimmered eye;-) some are aware of;-) Well,
everyone cannot know everything, can they? Einstein thought and expressed
that 'the sensation of the mystical was a fundamental attachment to
authentic science and art.' But maybe the mystical stands outside the
mystic. That is possible isn't it? That is probable. So why shoot the

I think there may be a dozen people reading on this list who might care to
understand this below, in it I find reason for involvement past, present
and future.

Truth is given once and for all, and it is laid down with precision.
Fundamentally, truth merely needs to be transmitted.
The originality of the exploring learner has two aspects.
In his spontaneity, he develops and explains what was transmitted
no matter whether it was known or forgotten and had to be rediscovered.
The effort of the seeker after truth consists not in having new ideas
but rather in subordinating himself to the continuity of tradition....
and in laying open what he receives from it in the context of his own time
and experience.
In other words;-) not system but commentary is the legitimate form/(content)
through which truth is approached.

Gershom Scholem (Jewish Scholar of Jewish Mysticism)

I express it clearly for those with little time left over to learn in this
place both wide and deep preferring presumably to do it elsewhere,

When I shared the 'wisdom' of a little boy speaking of some flowering
apple blossom as seeming 'perfect in which nothing could be put in nor
left out.' He was speaking of a 'visionaries work', in that case Len
McComb's. I suspect the small boy did not make the unnecessary effort so
many make here, that is to seek to 'differentiate from' rather than
'conjoin with' one kind of communication and another the better maybe, so
they think (?) to 'grasp' it. He (the child) saw through in the
image-of-reality AS EXPRESSED something 'as understood' being akin to
scripture, a more precedingly fundamental semeilogy than most practiced on
digests;-) and so in one moment of insight the child pierced the gloom of
an illusionary 'ineffability' seeing rather the entire 'songfield' of the
very 'vision' before him. Scripture is often taken to be such that it
maintains two states, 'complete' and 'compact'. This means nothing
essential is left out and nothing unessential is put in. In this his
authentic reaction/action the child soars above a thousand years of
scholastic enterprise by making commentarial eloquence itself redundant.
So it is that IMHO it is the artist and child who best lives without words
while equally able to utilize them more freely thanā^Ą¦. Understanding
both all the while since unlike most he can skip between the two states.
Linguistic ineffability is indeed limiting since one 'firebreak' in the
Buddhist connections to said ineffability;-) is guaranteed inasmuch as the
word fire written or uttered rarely brings forth flames. According is
better than understanding. I would probably call it 'apprehending today'.
"Teaching in accord with stories, parables and metaphors (katha-udbhavita,
gtam bsnyad pa) in this way making the disciple (learner) understand that
which is to be realized in his own way, individually and alone. That is
why it is said among them who more deeply know these things, *** The
doctrines of logical explanations lead beings to the phenomena. ***
(beings as to becomings in reality as one?) And for this reason the
teaching of the doctrine is not purposeless." Vasubandhu.

--Essences are indirectly - snip -- logical explanations are the first step
---snip snip snip ---

It is a custom, was a custom, remains one to say in such scholarship
(exegesis) *** There is nothing written here that has not occurred before
and I have no experience in the art of composition. ***
In fundamental humility I apprehend and acknowledge you Winfried, I see
you, I care how you live and I care how you die;-)

Thank you for the time you have given to my thoughts.

Perhaps in a few weeks you will ask me about a badge, the small girl in
the back of a car and the young man who fishes for the sutras of
provisonal and definitive meaning so that I may hang as the Master Buddha
did, some words upon silence ungivenly/gained while"lost through
nonmistaken reasoning itself"





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