Ray's Roses LO26380

From: Sajeela M ramsey (sajeelacore@juno.com)
Date: 03/18/01

Replying to LO26376 --

Ray and LO-vers,

Always a pleasure hearing from your Magic Circle of thoughts. Thanks for
your added perspectives and clarification (below) ---- and I hope you were
OK with my taking some liberties with what you meant about a "musical
ensemble or a soloist which is a physical ensemble." I am a lover of loose

On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:23:58 -0500 "Magic Circ Op Rep Ens" writes:
> What I was referring to was the ensemble of the body that the mind
> so often is unconscious of.

Ray, I believe, though I may have construed the meaning of your words
differently then you, that we may still "onto" the same phenomena. This
business about the mind and body is paramount. In your words:

>In the performing arts we begin with the development of this kind of >
>knowing and taking responsibility for our whole actions. It is then
>extended out to a group through sound, movement and thought until the
>group operates like an extended body.

Is this akin to the idea that the sum of the parts is greater the the
whole? I think what you are saying may be related to what I mentioned in
my post as "making links that surpass the rational circuitry of cognition
through an aesthetic application" ---- which can yeild a kind of gestalt
or whole awareness that is a "bigger" phenomena then the soloist, because
it is an extension of the physical as you say, that is, it transforms
into a "larger" body of sound and thought. You go on to say:

>The group can learn in the same way the individual does if it is filled
>with holistically aware individuals. This is sometimes referred to as
>being "egoless" but that doesn't make much sense to me. Like a fine
>Chamber musician it seems more an issue of focus and permission to "be
>with" than loss of identity.

Ray, I really appreciate your sensibilites ---- you are less a Zen master
(sometimes Zen can be so cold and abstract, almost as if one is constantly
"checking out" or distancing from everything, including and especially
becoming identified) and much more of a Sensate-ist? I really really like
that ---- "permission to be with". Beautiful. As to your answer to my
question about process and paradigm shifts, you say:

> Your original statement seems more connected to reading vs. listening
>which is an issue of literate vs. non-literate thinking and remembering.
> There is an excellent book on this called "The Alphabet Versus the
> Goddess" by Leonard Shlain, where he explores the issues more
> completely than I can here.

Have read it! Have you heard of the book by Ong (1982): "Orality and
Literacy"? I recommend it if you found Shlain's book interesting. Yes, I
am hedging in my question about issues of orality and how thinking takes
place in oral-based cultures and how this is different from literate and
technically based cultures' cognition and meaning-making. (see examples
at end of post). I have been writing about this for over ten years now.
My sense is that music as a process is pre-literate and therefore impacts
us on profound levels. And I concur wholeheartedly with the final
thoughts of your post:

>As for listening or the written word creating change, I don't believe it
>does. I believe that both has to do with remembering experience and
>bringing it into the consciousness. True change can happen as a
>synthesis of various memories through contemplation or as a synthesis
>of memory plus an external experience that shifts the person's
>consciousness. The only thing about the latter is that it requires
>practice to become permanent. Creation is both exploration and

Thanks for the "permission to be with" ----

Lace curtain blowing and speckled shadows,
Oral Culture and Cognition:
Asked what he thought of the village's new school principal, a Central
African man responded ' let's watch a little how he dances.'

A peasant from a remote area of the Soviet union replied when asked what
he thought of himself, ' What can I say about my own heart?
How can I talk about my character? Ask others; they can tell you about
 I myself can't say anything.'

'An African man who was raised by Jesuits returned to his village and was
trying to explain to an elder how insurance works. 'You mean', said the
       puzzled Elder,' that with insurance nothing ever happens to

Sajeela Moskowitz Ramsey: President, Core Consulting
Center for Organizational Renewal and Effectiveness
Senior OD Consultant/Culture Generalist
2432 Villanova Drive/Vienna, VA. 22180
703 573 7050/ SajeelaCore @Juno.com


Sajeela M ramsey <sajeelacore@juno.com>

[Host's Note: I forgot to add the book link to Ray's msg, so I'll place both links here.

In assoc w/Amamzon.com...

The Alphabet Versus the Goddess : The Conflict Between Word and Image by Leonard Shlain http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140196013/learningorg

Orality and Literacy : The Technologizing of the Word (New Accents) by Walter J. Ong http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415027969/learningorg


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