I think Group Think LO29237

From: Jan Lelie (janlelie@wxs.nl)
Date: 09/26/02

Replying to LO29233 --

Replying to reply on LO29233 --

I' didn't know Mandela was jailed for planning an armed revolution. It
seems an interesting - and still actual - problem: can we jail somebody
for planning a crime? And what if this planning is a crime against a
criminal organisation or governement. To me it seems that all thinking is
dialectical, because one does choose words from a context of meaning

Reading in LO2914: "The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the
ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find the man who
has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to."
Chuang Tzu

This might imply that the only way to read our own mind - what we're
meaning, thinking - is to look at the words we write and look for the
hidden messages. Is the word "choice" one of the roots of the word
dialectic? Do we - unintentionally perhaps - assume that choosing means
either-or, black-white, two opposite poles were many varieties exist? Or
do some of us work from a reality view that works towards more varieties
wereas others tend to work towards more unity. Multiple (sub)groups might
have the same values, traditions, stories but respond very differently to
the same situation. One stresses principles - unity - , the other values -
togetherness. One calls for actions - clear messages - another asks for
reflection - meaning. Perhaps human society is organized conflict, tension
generated by expectations, problems, solutions and creativity. Perhaps
we've not yet mastered the (counter-inventing) forces that this organizing

I introduced GroupThink as the poor version of consensus, a deaf dialogue,
as a disaster prone solution that somehow is an inevitable - or at least
recurring - step in the affairs of men. Your mail - i just pick up what i
hear and find, assuming that this world is just one interconnected whole
of meaning - might me think that dialectical thinking might be the root,
the stem of GroupThink. I agree with you that it offers no (re)solution,
but that doesn't seem to be something a group wants to hear.

I - and perhaps you too - am in no position to change the course of
events, nor, as a matter of fact - members of the Bush family, any member
of any governement, general or charismatic leader. We are at war with
ourselves. When men fight, the world suffers. It doesn't matter if your
right, you have to prove you're right.


Kind regards,

Jan Lelie

AM de Lange wrote:

[...snip by your host...]
>Please remember that Mandela was jailed for planning and armed
>revolution to overthrow the South African government in the sixties.
>But he learned in jail through deep reflection that the use of force,
>even with a revolution, is the one way in which political problems
>cannot be solved. He have made this clear many times since his
>release. Recently he phoned former pres Bush so see if he cannot
>convince his son to seek a peaceful solution for the political problems
>in Iraq.


Jan Lelie <janlelie@wxs.nl>

Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <Richard@Karash.com> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <http://www.learning-org.com>

"Learning-org" and the format of our message identifiers (LO1234, etc.) are trademarks of Richard Karash.