Replying to LO25377 --
Andrew "Campnona" < ACampnona@aol.com > writes upon my
>>I have merely avoided bringing the Creator of the
>>universe into the picture so as not to cause difficulties
>>for people who believe or do not believe in God Creator.
>And if I take this away with me to my retreat;-) and I rub
>my mind and spirit against it, will there be remaining any
>purpose in me returning to the 'telling what i found there,
>here or anywhere"?
I have snipped your quote to the last sentence which I have written
because I think this is is the "hot spot". Yes, I am very serious when I
say that I do not want cause difficilties in faith. But if such
difficulties have already been caused in some other way, I will be the
last to flee from them. Furthemore, if someone else want to tell about
his/her experiences with or thinking about God or want a dialogue on God,
I will be eager to listen and participate.
I believe with reason that any organisation which tries to side-step
religious issues, will find it extremely difficult to emerge into a LO.
It is for this reason (and I will explain this reason of any one wants it)
that I have dared to write so far and will dare to continue. Obviously,
Rick as the host to our LO-dialogue has the last say.
At present I am in private email correspondence with an old timer (79
years). He is still very sharp in intellect. He says that for him the
highest order is the human mind - being mental -- so that he cannot
believe in God as the most highest order. A couple of months ago I
corresponded with another fine lady who said that for her the highest
order is human spirituality so that she also cannot believe in God as the
most highest order. Please take note that I did not refer here to the God
of the Bible.
When I point out to him that God Creator is the Great Mind and to her that
God Creator is the Great Spirit, they answered me in almost the same
manner -- this is not what people in general tell about God. Because of
this, they will not even contemplate the speculation that there is indeed
a Cod Creator.
If I had to rely on what other people tell about God Creator, I would,
like them, become an atheist because all the claims about God are too
confusing. But why should I conform to what they claim? Is this
parrot-talk ("napraat", Nachsprechen) the only way in which I can learn?
If it is, from which person did a certain parrot claim originated before
it became echoed by zillions of rote learners? What makes this parrot
claim of that person authentic so that I have to accept it as holy?
I have learned something which is most precious to me about God Creator --
"Question Me incessantly and I will teach you." I have also learned that
God Creator is a far wiser teacher than any human, knowing when to teach
me what so that eventually I could master what I wanted to know.
There are certain things which I asked God more than thirty years ago to
teach me, things which God the Wise taught me only after twenty to twenty
five years. I want to laugh at my ignorance as a younger man that I need
not become prepared in advance to know some things. These things had one
thing in common -- they were all very complex involving the highest orders
of complexity. Today I know that learning them authentically involves the
Law of Requisite Complexity (LRC) and the Law of Singularity of Complexity
Here is one of these things. I will only lead you to some point so that
you can continue self with your own authentic learning. I will definitely
not make any claims.
I have deleted the following in Andrew's quote which I will now quote
>>The free energy F of the universe is decreasing
>>continuously as the universe is becoming more
>>organised. In fact, we will use the very expression
>> /_\F(sy) + /_\F(su) < 0
>>taken together into
>> /_\F(un) < 0
>>as our very principal definition for the SPONTANEOUS
>>organising of the universe UN.
Somewhere else in the "dance of LEP on LEC" I argued (what
Einstein also considered to be of crucial importance, but in which
he did not make the distinction between (sy) and (su)) that
. /_\F(su) = - W
. /_\F(sy) - W < 0
. /_\F(sy) < W
Now since we intend to step (emerge?) from the order of learning into the
order of believing, let me make the following speculation (and may God
forgive me my arrogance for delimiting the Almighty in such a manner for a
Let me assume that
* God Creator GC is the surrounding (environment, context) of the
universe UN (Creation)
* The "free energy" F(un) of the universe bear witness to the "free
energy" F(gc) of God Creator GC.
* We can extend the "dance" (/_\F(sy) + /_\F(su) < 0) into
. /_\F(un) + /_\F(gc) < 0
. universe(system) God Creator(surroundings)
Now I have to bring in the Bible once. Many of the prophets in the
Old Testament tell between the lines that God works continuously
and Jesus articulates it explicitly in the NT. In other words, leaving
the Bible aside, let us rather make as fourth assumption that
* /_\F(gc) = -W
where W depicts the work which God does so that
. /_\F(un) < W
With this order relationship we can then explore mentally how God
Creator interacts with Creation. We need not to believe what we
explore. We merely have to become mentally aware of the immense
complexity involving Creation and God Creator. I am not going to do
this in our LO-dialogue because that would take us off our course.
Perhaps you may try once again to consider all three categories for
/_\F. Thereafter you may make up your mind what the different
categories for the work W of God Creator might be. With this "river
flowing into a delta before entering the sea", compare the outcome
. /_\F(un) < W
dynamics with what your religion has to say.
Dear Andrew, I have done it self in my retreat ;-) I got insights in
the Biblical religion which made me stagger at what is obvious
as well as what seems to be beyond comprehension. You ask
. "will there be remaining any purpose in me returning
. to the 'telling what i found there, here or anywhere"?
I will definitely not tell about these insights. I might have given
too much opportunities for rote learning in
. "Work and Free Energy -- The Dance of LEP on LEC"
despite my explicit warnings. I will give no opportunity whatsoever
for rote believing. But this I will say:
. The LORD works whatever is pleasing in heaven
. and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
With care and best wishes
At de Lange <email@example.com> Snailmail: A M de Lange Gold Fields Computer Centre Faculty of Science - University of Pretoria Pretoria 0001 - Rep of South Africa
Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <Richard@Karash.com> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <http://www.learning-org.com>
"Learning-org" and the format of our message identifiers (LO1234, etc.) are trademarks of Richard Karash.