Truth and Reality in Systems Thinking LO26429

From: Gavin Ritz (
Date: 03/24/01

Replying to LO26409 --

Hi John

John Zavacki wrote:

> First, I want to thank Barry for point out Gavin's observation. I missed
> it.
> > When you observed below that Systems Thinking seems to
> > represent flow and
> > not structure, I came away unable to understand for myself
> > what you mean by
> > "structure."
> The system is, indeed, the flow, the relationships amongst the elements of
> the system. Without flow and the understanding of it, what is a system
> becomes a "heap" of things. System cares little about structure as an
> artifact.

You might need to re-think this one, structure in my opinion is the
fundamental base on which all processes work. Philosophy is a structural
discipline. In another thread there has been some mention about form and
content in harmony with each other both are structural. You might want to
look into this.

Energy is the primordial structure of the universe and "process
-structures" in ever increasing complexity on top of the that. This is the
fundamental premise of EKS. (Energy cybernetic Strategy). And exactly the
same as LEP on LEC.

> Efficiency cares about structure.

In my opinion organizations are processing structures and efficiency has
to do with process and often neglects structure. e.g. efficient production
processes, procedures etc.

> System cares about the relationships within the structure.

Maybe we have different definitions of structure, your system concept
seems like my structure concept. The structure (the best definition I can
find is from Maturana) denotes the components and relations that actually
constitute a particular unity (whole) and makes its organization real.

> I can see it no other way. If the
> aim of a system is to keep alive a poorly designed structure system finds
> the relationships that matter and maintains them.

And very often in the most inefficient way.

> The stucture can still be clumsy,

And this effects the process and creates bottlenecks and constraints hence
the rise of theories like TOC and EKS. The key to this is harmony between
process and structure which maybe one can call this efficiency-
effectiveness factor. I believe to look at one or the either is myopic.



Gavin Ritz <>

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