Standard LO26699

From: Gavin Ritz (
Date: 05/21/01

Replying to LO26696 --

Hi John

John Zavacki wrote:

> Winfried points out that Gavin's "standard" meaning may not be so
> standard. In my original reply to this thread, I described my concept of
> marketing. It is by no means that which Gavin calls "standard" but
> encompasses not just sales and demographic/competitive research, but the
> entire product development process as well.

I am fully aware of this, it still does not meet the criteria of a whole,
and only wholes exhibit complexity. Unless you may have another meaning
for complexity.

> This IS a system,

A system was never in doubt, a system that exhibits wholeness is a complex
evolving, adapting system which marketing is surely not.

> Gavin. It
> meets all of your criteria and all of mine.

I think we have totally different criteria of evaluating complex, mine has
the criteria generally set down by CAS, plus VSM, plus a whole host of
other theories. Maybe I need to ask you what specifically does a complex
system mean to you.

> The notion of complex
> marketing systems is, indeed, complex, as are the discussions of it.

That is my whole point, they are not but I think our frames of reference
are very different.

How does a complex marketing system adapt?
What are is mechanisms for adaptation.?
How do you identify (categorical identity) a whole complex system.?
And what do you mean by self organizing?
How is the process and structure defined?
How do you identify a whole?
How do you define the recursivity of a self-organizing complex marketing
How do you define the closure of a complex marketing system?
How do you define the degrees of freedom of a complex marketing system?
How does the association and linkages work between recursive complex marketing

If those questions above can be answered then I will concede that maybe
marketing systems are self-organizing complex systems.



Gavin Ritz <>

Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <>

"Learning-org" and the format of our message identifiers (LO1234, etc.) are trademarks of Richard Karash.