Faith Communities and Learning Organizations LO21902

Gavin Ritz (
Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:28:38 +1200

Replying to LO21891 --

Dear John (and At)

I have pondered with this thing called culture, culture comes from the Greek
meaning to cultivate, values and culture are in a sense closely linked because
what we value must be our culture ( I do not see a problem here). However over
the last five years I have looked deeply at this issue of values, principles,
culture and they seem to have little to do with the heavenly stuff. Culture is
just shared values which come from intrinsic needs/hopes and ideals,
aspirations or longings, lacks and internal pain. Actually most of our needs
stem from the death instinct -read Ernst Beckers Pulitzer Prize book. My
coming doctoral is around this very stuff, it is the motivator of man the
prime mover of men. Fear energy and aspiration energy are the prime movers of
man. Every product and service, this includes all religions, if you don't
believe me I can prove it to you, all endeavours of mankind is to meet mans
needs. The sole reason for industrial effort is to meet mans needs, that is
what he does not have and so desperately seeks. His ideals, aspirations, his
deprivations, his rejections and abandonment's. The needs for security,
protection, his desire to feel special and be awarded, his needs to feel
strong and invincible, his needs to procreate, his needs to have plenty, all
his nourishment needs, his needs to live in harmony and perfection and beauty,
his needs for succession and abundance and plenty, his affliative needs and
all the opposites (the dread or loss of not meeting those needs) of these that
drive him forward. This is mans motivation he creates organisations and
systems, this includes state and church, to deliver this promise. And even
labels them with human body parts, the head of state, the long arm of the law,
the body politic. All our systems are just reflections of the collective
aspirations and desires (and Fears & dreads) of man. To see your own needs
often takes a lot of courage for then we see our selves naked and empty and it
is this very emptiness we are afraid of. Learning organisations just carry
that promise of mankind forward and hope to deliver that promise. My guess is
that LO's will be just one endeavour of many. Yes, there is no difference
between church, government and organisation, they all have the same ultimate
goal. But on the surface it does not seem so. If we look through the smoke and
mirrors of our childhood's we may just get that peek at some ultimate truths.
All men have faith in the face of death and we all strive for immortality, be
it in our writings, our children or the Great Creator, culture and religion is
just the jacket, knowledge is just knowing that it is there and trying to
explain it and find reason why it is there in the first place, faith is
believing that it will always be there no matter what. The jacket is just an
empty promise what is beneath the jacket is the gift, the gift of the Great

I think I have said maybe too much on this already.
Godzone, New Zealand

Richard GOODALE wrote:

> Dear John (and At)
> Please let me respectfully disagree. There is only one level to Learning
> and that is an unfathomable and ineffable level called Curiosity. The
> moment that one uses words such as "highest level" and "faith," is the
> moment that one has renounced their innate capacity to be unequivocably
> curious. Without unequivocable curiosity, one can learn only within the
> very narrow boundaries of ones past experience or the even more narrow
> boundaries of ones faith.
> John, you wrote eloquently in a recent posting of your organistion as an
> "wormhole" for others (i.e. as a vehicle for allowing young people to be
> brought in, to learn, and then to move on to some other "level"). If you
> now have "faith," will you be able to know if some other person opens up a
> wormhole for you?
> In the spirit of continuous inquiry
> Richard Goodale


Gavin Ritz <>

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